This is your brain on communication | Uri Hasson

This is your brain on communication | Uri Hasson


Imagine that you invented a device that can record my memories, my dreams, my ideas, and transmit them to your brain. That would be a game-changing
technology, right? But in fact, we already
possess this device, and it’s called human communication system and effective storytelling. To understand how this device works, we have to look into our brains. And we have to formulate the question
in a slightly different manner. Now we have to ask how these neuron patterns in my brain that are associated
with my memories and ideas are transmitted into your brains. And we think there are two factors
that enable us to communicate. First, your brain is now
physically coupled to the sound wave that I’m transmitting to your brain. And second, we developed
a common neural protocol that enabled us to communicate. So how do we know that? In my lab in Princeton, we bring people to the fMRI scanner
and we scan their brains while they are either telling
or listening to real-life stories. And to give you a sense
of the stimulus we are using, let me play 20 seconds
from a story that we used, told by a very talented storyteller, Jim O’Grady. (Audio) Jim O’Grady: So I’m banging out
my story and I know it’s good, and then I start to make it better — (Laughter) by adding an element of embellishment. Reporters call this “making shit up.” (Laughter) And they recommend
against crossing that line. But I had just seen the line crossed
between a high-powered dean and assault with a pastry. And I kinda liked it.” Uri Hasson: OK, so now
let’s look into your brain and see what’s happening
when you listen to these kinds of stories. And let’s start simple — let’s start
with one listener and one brain area: the auditory cortex that processes
the sounds that come from the ear. And as you can see,
in this particular brain area, the responses are going up and down
as the story is unfolding. Now we can take these responses and compare them to the responses
in other listeners in the same brain area. And we can ask: How similar are the responses
across all listeners? So here you can see five listeners. And we start to scan their brains
before the story starts, when they’re simply lying in the dark
and waiting for the story to begin. As you can see, the brain area is going up and down
in each one of them, but the responses are very different, and not in sync. However, immediately
as the story is starting, something amazing is happening. (Audio) JO: So I’m banging out my story
and I know it’s good, and then I start to make it — UH: Suddenly, you can see
that the responses in all of the subjects lock to the story, and now they are going up and down
in a very similar way across all listeners. And in fact, this is exactly
what is happening now in your brains when you listen to my sound speaking. We call this effect “neural entrainment.” And to explain to you
what is neural entrainment, let me first explain
what is physical entrainment. So, we’ll look and see five metronomes. Think of these five metronomes
as five brains. And similar to the listeners
before the story starts, these metronomes are going to click, but they’re going to click out of phase. (Clicking) Now see what will happen
when I connect them together by placing them on these two cylinders. (Clicking) Now these two cylinders start to rotate. This rotation vibration
is going through the wood and is going to couple
all the metronomes together. And now listen to the click. (Synchronized clicking) This is what you call
physical entrainment. Now let’s go back to the brain and ask: What’s driving this neural entrainment? Is it simply the sounds
that the speaker is producing? Or maybe it’s the words. Or maybe it’s the meaning
that the speaker is trying to convey. So to test it, we did
the following experiment. First, we took the story
and played it backwards. And that preserved many
of the original auditory features, but removed the meaning. And it sounds something like that. (Audio) JO: (Unintelligible) And we flashed colors in the two brains to indicate brain areas that respond
very similarly across people. And as you can see, this incoming sound induced entrainment
or alignment in all of the brains in auditory cortices
that process the sounds, but it didn’t spread
deeper into the brain. Now we can take these sounds
and build words out of it. So if we take Jim O’Grady
and scramble the words, we’ll get a list of words. (Audio) JO: … an animal …
assorted facts … and right on … pie man …
potentially … my stories UH: And you can see that these words
start to induce alignment in early language areas,
but not more than that. Now we can take the words
and start to build sentences out of them. (Audio) JO: And they recommend
against crossing that line. He says: “Dear Jim,
Good story. Nice details. Didn’t she only know
about him through me?” UH: Now you can see that the responses
in all the language areas that process the incoming language become aligned or similar
across all listeners. However, only when we use
the full, engaging, coherent story do the responses spread
deeper into the brain into higher-order areas, which include the frontal cortex
and the parietal cortex, and make all of them
respond very similarly. And we believe that these responses
in higher-order areas are induced or become similar across listeners because of the meaning
conveyed by the speaker, and not by words or sound. And if we are right,
there’s a strong prediction over here if I tell you the exact same ideas using two very different sets of words, your brain responses
will still be similar. And to test it, we did
the following experiment in my lab. We took the English story and translated it to Russian. Now you have two different sounds
and linguistic systems that convey the exact same meaning. And you play the English story
to the English listeners and the Russian story
to the Russian listeners, and we can compare their responses
across the groups. And when we did that, we didn’t see
responses that are similar in auditory cortices in language, because the language
and sound are very different. However, you can see
that the responses in high-order areas were still similar
across these two groups. We believe this is because they understood
the story in a very similar way, as we confirmed, using a test
after the story ended. And we think that this alignment
is necessary for communication. For example, as you can tell, I am not a native English speaker. I grew up with another language, and the same might be for many
of you in the audience. And still, we can communicate. How come? We think we can communicate
because we have this common code that presents meaning. So far, I’ve only talked about
what’s happening in the listener’s brain, in your brain, when
you’re listening to talks. But what’s happening
in the speaker’s brain, in my brain, when I’m speaking to you? To look in the speaker’s brain, we asked the speaker
to go into the scanner, we scan his brain and then compare his brain responses
to the brain responses of the listeners listening to the story. You have to remember that producing speech
and comprehending speech are very different processes. Here we’re asking: How similar are they? To our surprise, we saw that all these complex
patterns within the listeners actually came from the speaker brain. So production and comprehension
rely on very similar processes. And we also found the stronger the similarity
between the listener’s brain and the speaker’s brain, the better the communication. So I know that if you
are completely confused now, and I do hope that this is not the case, your brain responses
are very different than mine. But I also know that if you really
understand me now, then your brain … and your brain
… and your brain are really similar to mine. Now, let’s take all
this information together and ask: How can we use it to transmit
a memory that I have from my brain to your brains? So we did the following experiment. We let people watch,
for the first time in their life, a TV episode from the BBC series
“Sherlock,” while we scanned their brains. And then we asked them
to go back to the scanner and tell the story to another person
that never watched the movie. So let’s be specific. Think about this exact scene, when Sherlock is entering
the cab in London driven by the murderer he is looking for. With me, as a viewer, there is a specific brain pattern
in my brain when I watch it. Now, the exact same pattern,
I can reactivate in my brain again by telling the word:
Sherlock, London, murderer. And when I’m transmitting
these words to your brains now, you have to reconstruct it in your mind. In fact, we see that pattern
emerging now in your brains. And we were really surprised to see that the pattern you have
now in your brains when I’m describing to you these scenes would be very similar to the pattern
I had when I watched this movie a few months ago in the scanner. This starts to tell you
about the mechanism by which we can tell stories
and transmit information. Because, for example, now you’re listening really hard
and trying to understand what I’m saying. And I know that it’s not easy. But I hope that at one point
in the talk we clicked, and you got me. And I think that in a few hours,
a few days, a few months, you’re going to meet someone at a party, and you’re going to tell him
about this lecture, and suddenly it will be as if
he is standing now here with us. Now you can see
how we can take this mechanism and try to transmit memories
and knowledge across people, which is wonderful, right? But our ability to communicate
relies on our ability to have common ground. Because, for example, if I’m going to use the British synonym “hackney carriage” instead of “cab,” I know that I’m going to be misaligned
with most of you in the audience. This alignment depends
not only on our ability to understand the basic concept; it also depends on our ability to develop
common ground and understanding and shared belief systems. Because we know that in many cases, people understand the exact
same story in very different ways. So to test it in the lab,
we did the following experiment. We took a story by J.D. Salinger, in which a husband lost track
of his wife in the middle of a party, and he’s calling his best friend, asking,
“Did you see my wife?” For half of the subjects, we said that the wife was having
an affair with the best friend. For the other half, we said that the wife is loyal
and the husband is very jealous. This one sentence before the story started was enough to make the brain responses of all the people that believed
the wife was having an affair be very similar in these high-order areas and different than the other group. And if one sentence is enough
to make your brain similar to people that think like you and very different than people
that think differently than you, think how this effect is going
to be amplified in real life, when we are all listening
to the exact same news item after being exposed
day after day after day to different media channels,
like Fox News or The New York Times, that give us very different
perspectives on reality. So let me summarize. If everything worked as planned tonight, I used my ability to vocalize sound
to be coupled to your brains. And I used this coupling to transmit my brain patterns associated
with my memories and ideas into your brains. In this, I start to reveal
the hidden neural mechanism by which we communicate. And we know that in the future
it will enable us to improve and facilitate communication. But these studies also reveal that communication relies
on a common ground. And we have to be
really worried as a society if we lose this common ground
and our ability to speak with people that are slightly different than us because we let a few very strong
media channels take control of the mic, and manipulate and control
the way we all think. And I’m not sure how to fix it
because I’m only a scientist. But maybe one way to do it is to go back to the more
natural way of communication, which is a dialogue, in which it’s not only me
speaking to you now, but a more natural way of talking, in which I am speaking and I am listening, and together we are trying to come
to a common ground and new ideas. Because after all, the people we are coupled to
define who we are. And our desire to be coupled
to another brain is something very basic
that starts at a very early age. So let me finish with an example
from my own private life that I think is a good example
of how coupling to other people is really going to define who we are. This my son Jonathan at a very early age. See how he developed
a vocal game together with my wife, only from the desire and pure joy
of being coupled to another human being. (Both vocalizing) (Laughter) Now, think how the ability of my son to be coupled to us
and other people in his life is going to shape the man
he is going to become. And think how you change on a daily basis from the interaction and coupling
to other people in your life. So keep being coupled to other people. Keep spreading your ideas, because the sum of all of us
together, coupled, is greater than our parts. Thank you. (Applause)

Comments

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    logicalempiricist2

    This could really form a new basis for the construct of the meme: it is a brain electricity pattern.

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    Kun Lin

    When the speaker's brain and the listener's brain show similar patterns, is it possible that part of the reason is that the speaker also hears what s/he is saying, thus evoking similar responses in the brain, he didn't make that very clear in the talk. But overall, very interesting study!

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    Lupus ad Noctem

    I feel like I missed his point. He just confirmed that stories and conversation are essential tools for human communication. We know this. The fact that this common knowledge has a basis in the brain is neat, but i don't see where he was trying to go with it unless his overarching message is that to better understand others, we need to communicate with them…

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    Jason Lewis

    I think this guy stumbled upon the mechanism by which the general population's opinions are orchestrated by certain media. Uri Hasson could also be on to something akin to the 1983 movie Brainstorm. Sounds fun!!

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    تامر نور

    كﻻم تافه جدا….و كﻻم غير مفهوم…اختصارا لكﻻمك التافه. ..ربنا خلقنا شعوبا لكي نتعارف مع بعضنا…و التعارف يكمن في كيفية ايصال فكرك بطريقة سلسلة مثقفه و بي امثال شائعة من الحياه…

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    HAPPYplace

    what hit me home was the fact that language doesnt matter.. it's the meaning of the message that will sync the brains – incredible!

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    The Real Drunkard Hu

    I realized part way through the video that it was hard to understand his language through the thick accent at first, but became easier to understand him later on. Pretty neat.

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    Just Nothing

    Please some native speaker tells me if you can easily listen to what he talks? I'm just an English learner and I feel hard to listen to his voice.

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    06109633

    The Nazis researched this to great extent, in America we have perfected the ability to control propaganda and control how people think.

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    OliveTheGolden

    Such a heavy Israeli accent. I'm from Israel as well and I still can't understand what he's saying for the most part.

    P.S
    Try turning subtitles on incase you can't understand wtf he's saying.

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    Stefan Vo

    Interesting concepts, but is their scientific evidence backing this up? The brain images he shows don't seem to have much credibility.

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    แมวน้อย น่ารัก

    And that's how religious and political beliefs are spead like a virus.

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    JamesA

    note to all non native english speakers: if you sound like this guy when you try and speak english… dont.

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    Melissa0774

    I participated in this study. I forgot about it until I heard the guy telling the story. It was a stand up comedian type guy talking about how he found out years later, that his old landlord in New York back in the '80's was a murderer. He narrowly avoided having the guy put a hit out on him because he moved out of the building in time. Sometimes this guy's lab does studies where they put two people in the fMRI scanner at one time. I might be wrong, but I think they actually used to fit them into one scanner before they got a second one, in the new building they're in now. I'd like to know how they did that.

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    Melissa0774

    I wonder when his lab is going to start studying the factors are that mess up this communications process that they've discovered. Like autism, especially.

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    Robin Johnson

    I find it ironic that this is about communication when i almost feel so bad for saying i feel like he needs an English interpreter… I'm sure it was a great talk though.

    I felt like i was learning and not learning at the same time.

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    Bijan Izadi

    11:45 effectively why bad things happen in large groups where people are watching one political candidate talk about things

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    chromanin

    Kind of obvious, it might be more rewarding to study the outliers who respond differently or differences in decoding non-intuitive concepts.

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    Aldric Williams

    I'm not gonna lie….I'm pretty positively sure youtube comments have a negative effect on my brain. I want to stop reading them but the occasional good laugh or positive feedback and sometimes even educational response are worth yearning for.

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    Paul Karlsen

    It's true what he says about meaning across languages… I have conversations in three languages, and sometimes I can recall the content of a conversation but I can't remember what language it was in.

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    Radosław Grzelak

    So freaking hard to listen to it. Irony is that he is talking about communication and its so painfully hard to understand him.

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    Christina Volatiana

    this is definitely the most insightful and inspiring lecture I have watched. He gave enough details and much advice. His voice was hard to follow, but the content of the speech was so interesting ! Such a great idea worth spreading !

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    アインツベルン凛

    I wish my teachers in high school can teach this well. I thought this person was very repetitive. However, not once did I think this lecture was boring. Great job on this, Uri Hasson.

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    Asya Chashinska

    actually in the example when english version says "so I'm banging out my story and I know it's good" in russian it says "I want to tell you my story about my friend, chinese guy with name U". not the same meaning🤔

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    mindvolution

    Great lecture! "Because the sum of all of us together is greater than our parts." because we all create our culture and our world. Imagine if we do so consciously and in organized and directed ways! Oh, that's called cultural (r)evolution!

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    iljy able

    6:48 What is he talking about?

    Russian translation of "So I'm banging out my story and I know it's good" is – Так что, я выложу свою историю, и я знаю она хороша"
    And english translation of "Я расскажу вам историю о моем друге китайский парень по имени Ю" is – "I will tell you a story about my friend chinese guy with name U"

    Is this research all fake?

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    lila 123456789

    Ignore this comment as this is a personal msg for someone

    I guess if we just have the normal type of communication before and if i was just enlightened about the whole situation, we wouldn't really have conflicts or issues that much.

    But i also have a fault cuz i assumed some things and there was no one to reply to me that it wasnt true or things like that.

    But its ok. Sometimes its like that. Thats totally fine =)

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